Football Forum | Ticket Forum | Off-Topic Forum | All

twoleftfeet 9:44 Tue Jun 7
Gareth Southgate.

This guy seems permanently obsessed about racism.

Every week he seems to want to discuss it.

His latest claim is that the racism threat determines who he now chooses to take penalties.

I appreciate that a few morons, mostly from outside the UK, chucked some racist comments at the players who missed penalties against Italy but it really isn’t as bad as he makes out in this country.

The guy should concentrate on trying to coach England rather than be a mouth piece for BLM.

lowlife 10:02 Wed Jun 15
Re: Gareth Southgate.

Hoddle had no choice with Gaza for the 98 squad. I knew it at the time, but didn’t realise how much he’d fucked up until watching the documentary. The frustrating thing about that period is that Gazza had one of his strongest games for England in the 0-0 qualifier vs. Italy. A real shame that he couldn’t hold it together.

zico 9:06 Wed Jun 15
Re: Gareth Southgate.

southbank

Yep fair points also. Strange how the England job can turn some really good managers to shit. I mean Robson had a fantastic managerial career, Taylor led Watford through the divisions and ended up between a rock and a hard place because he was stuck between his route one success and trying to play a bit with England. Greenwood's results were up and down and Keegans gung ho never worked at all. Would have been interested to see how Venables would have fared if he had stayed and likewise to be fair with Hoddle as I've heard that he wanted to use Rio as a Libero. Can't blame Hoddle with Gazza though, Paul just shot himself in the foot totally and was crap in those pre WC friendlies.

The problem has been this for years though and generally that's the fact that the best players in the Premier Leagues top sides have been foreign!

southbankbornnbred 8:45 Wed Jun 15
Re: Gareth Southgate.

Zico - yep, all fair points. Although Bobby Robson had to be jolted into a change of tactics by his own players during Italia '90. After Bryan Robson went down with yet another injury, and to avoid the problem with being outgunned in midfield against Holland (then European Champions), the players told Bobby that they wanted to play 5-3-2 or something similar (with Mark Wright cominb in, effectively as a 'sweeper' alongside Walker and Butcher).

It was player power, rather than Bobby Robson's tactics, which improved England after that dismal opener against Ireland - and they never looked back.

When Bobby Robson went with his instincts he was a rigid 4-4-2 man in the '86 World Cup and horrendous '88 European Championship in which they lost every game.

zico 8:27 Wed Jun 15
Re: Gareth Southgate.

southbankbornnbred 3:59 Wed Jun 15

I think you answered your own question re Wilkins and Robson being played in the middle. It was generally as you say due to England playing a rigid 442.

Interestingly if you read Ron Greenwoods book he says due to the lack of time spent with the players he went with a simple 442 format that most players were comfortable with at Club level. Two in the middle with Steve Coppell on the right and someone else on the left. With West Ham though Greenwood wasn't a 442 manager getting his inspiration ironically from the Hungarian way of playing, so for him it was a time thing as he didn't have day in day out to hammer home his principles.

Bobby Robson towards the end wasn't far off what Venables did with Lineker up top and Beardsley drifting so not a million miles away from Shearer and Sheringham, thus not your typical striker pairing. However both Managers had one advantage, or at least Robson did later, in Gascoigne they had a talent and a half who could do a lot. In many ways it was a shame Gascoigne and Bryan Robson overlapped as those two would have had it all in the centre of midfield.

The only defence I would give Southgate is that I can kind of understand why he is worried defensively because we are not blessed in that area. Arguably the worst era for English goalkeepers, Maguire having a nightmare of a season and Stones always liable to make a howler. Peter Shilton, Terry Butcher and Des Walker would walk into this team! However he does have the talent going the other way but as you say trying to make your creators into destroyers isn't going to work!

Texas Iron 7:21 Wed Jun 15
Re: Gareth Southgate.

Has The Vest APOLOGISED yet...???

All his fault...

Selection ...Tactics...Subs Preparation...Attitude..r.

Too Tired playing for your country...Never...

Use all your subs.. and players in their correct position...

BRANDED 7:11 Wed Jun 15
Re: Gareth Southgate.

Mourinho

He wins stuff

Manuel 6:34 Wed Jun 15
Re: Gareth Southgate.

I'd make Rice player manager.

the exile 5:53 Wed Jun 15
Re: Gareth Southgate.

nerd 5:05 Wed Jun 15
Re: Gareth Southgate.
The last 30 mins against Italy and the full 90mins last night proves first name on the sheet and should be captain is Rice.


Agreed. I only saw the second half last night but England really missed Rice. Phillips was utterly abysmal.

southbankbornnbred 5:28 Wed Jun 15
Re: Gareth Southgate.

Go to 7.35 in this interview - Lampard talks about it again...chasing a packed Paraguay midfield around on a boiling hot day. No fun!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRdbUfcBPZw

The clique thing mentioned in this interview also drives me nuts. How did successive managers allow that to happen?!

southbankbornnbred 5:19 Wed Jun 15
Re: Gareth Southgate.

For my sins, I once interviewed Lampard. I know he's not everybody's cup of tea on here (I get it). But he made the point, several times, that one of the reasons the Gerrard/Lampard thing did not work out for England was simply because even when they played together they were often up against three, sometimes four, central midfield opponents who kept the ball well and outnumbered them in THE key area of the pitch.

He compared it to playing that grid game where one side has two players in the grid and the other has three: the players on the side with two just chase shadows all day, because opponents always have the spare man in THE key area. So they dominate the ball and possession on hot days over 90 or 120 minutes.

Going 3v3 in the key area of the pitch, as they generally have under Southgate, has evened that out.

southbankbornnbred 5:12 Wed Jun 15
Re: Gareth Southgate.

Don't forget, even McLaren got the job after Scolari - a Brazilian wedded to 4-4-2 (hence his appea to the FA) - turned it down.

southbankbornnbred 5:10 Wed Jun 15
Re: Gareth Southgate.

Hermit - for many years, yes! The FA determined that England managers and coaches should coach to the old FA manual of wing-commander Charles Hughes. Everything in the FA structure was geared towards that. I trained as a (basic) coach when they still used it - looking back, it was 25 years out of date at the time!

In more recent decades (90s onwards) they 'merely' settled on managers who reassured them (in interviews/selection) about sticking to tried and tested (English club) methods that the players would supposedly recognise and feel more comfortable with. The FA was open about preferring (rather than dicatating to) candidates who favoured 4-4-2: hence, after their experiment with Hoddle (which they found uncomfortable for several reasons), they went with Keegan, then Sven (who was more wedded to it than most), then Schecond Choischh Schteeve, Capello and Hodgson.

By that point, it was more about the mindset of English club football. But other coaches had been screaming about doing things differently and making sure that - during hot tournaments on 80-degree days - you don't leave Gareth Barry and Frank Lampard to 'mark' three or four technically-excellent Germans. Or two bang-average Icelandics!

Finally, Southgate has changed that. England don't get dominated in midfield now, unless the opponents are superb passers (in which case, they are probably just a better side anyway).

nerd 5:05 Wed Jun 15
Re: Gareth Southgate.

The last 30 mins against Italy and the full 90mins last night proves first name on the sheet and should be captain is Rice. The only experiment outcome.

Hermit Road 4:57 Wed Jun 15
Re: Gareth Southgate.

“ The one big thing I credit Southgate for, is he's been the England manager who finally convinced the FA to ditch its nutty obsession with 4-4-2 and/or two central midfielders at international level.”

I bow to your better knowledge of the England setup but is it really the case that the FA was dictating to multiple managers the formations they had to use?

If so, that is utterly dysfunctional.

southbankbornnbred 4:55 Wed Jun 15
Re: Gareth Southgate.

Yep, I don't disagree with that.

I thought his choices in the final against Italy were uninventive. He's a flawed manager, but he does have some upsides. England are generally (last night aside) better organised, play to a better formation for international football and work harder under Southgate than under Hodgson and Capello (whose reign was surprisingly and expensively shit).

But he's generally a bit hopeless on the attacking side of things. We shouldn't be surprised - that's what he was like as a player. Even when he was a midfielder, he came out in a rash when he got into the opposition's half!

Russ of the BML 4:45 Wed Jun 15
Re: Gareth Southgate.

"So he hasn't been all bad. He has got us to a semi-final and a final"

Yes - Then his lack of action and mistakes lost us those finals.

Razzle 4:30 Wed Jun 15
Re: Gareth Southgate.

There is very little in the way of guile in the England.

southbankbornnbred 4:24 Wed Jun 15
Re: Gareth Southgate.

The one big thing I credit Southgate for, is he's been the England manager who finally convinced the FA to ditch its nutty obsession with 4-4-2 and/or two central midfielders at international level.

He often uses three across the centre of the pitch, which means we rarely get over-run in central midfield - like almost every England side did under managers from the 70s onwards (Hoddle was an exception).

60%+ of the game passes through central midfield. England obsessed about playing just two in there, often against three or four opponents, for decades - and would get outpassed and outplayed (like the 4-1 against Germany in 2010). Southgate has generally ditched that - and when he has played two in central midfield, he's used a third centre back to compress space.

So he hasn't been all bad. He has got us to a semi-final and a final.

Council Scum 4:17 Wed Jun 15
Re: Gareth Southgate.

Been saying it for years, England do well despite Southgate, not because of him.

Awful, woke, cunt.

southbankbornnbred 4:09 Wed Jun 15
Re: Gareth Southgate.

Yep - fair point, that. He often overlooked Le Tissier and McManaman in favour of more workmanlike players.

England managers get scared. I guess the inevitable media onslaught when you lose plays some part in that - they don't want to be portrayed as a turnip on the back page of the tabs. But in being so negative they turn into turnips anyway.

Gordon Cowans getting picked by Taylor ahead of Gascoigne and/or Le Tissier was another one.

lowlife 4:02 Wed Jun 15
Re: Gareth Southgate.

Re Hoddle being overlooked in favour of Wilkins, Hoddle himself did this when he didn’t pick Le Tissier at the park of his career.

Page 1 - Next